S4 E8: A Nuanced Discussion About Focus and Attention w/ Dr. Mark

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On any given day we may hear about the benefits of honing attention, paying attention, and being focused. Oftentimes, these comments are related to productivity, learning, or engagement at work, school, or in other aspects of life. However, how often do we discuss and define what attention means? Do we have an awareness of what may get in the way of our attention? 

Attention and focus can be fleeting experiences that are influenced by so many different factors in life, especially technology. In this episode, Alexis & Jerry are joined by the research scientist and psychologist, Dr. Gloria Mark. In her recent book, Attention Span: A Groundbreaking Way to Restore Balance, Happiness and Productivity, Dr. Mark chronicles the numerous research studies and work she has conducted on attention in an engaging and helpful way. In this discussion we tackle topics of multitasking, kinetic attention, the emotion and stress related to attention, and so much more. 

Gloria Mark is Chancellor’s Professor of Informatics at the University of California, Irvine. She received her Ph.D. from Columbia University in psychology and studies the impact of digital media on people’s lives. She takes a deep dive in examining multitasking, interruptions, and mood with the use of digital devices. She has published over 200 articles, and in 2017 was inducted into the ACM SIGCHI Academy which recognizes leaders in the field of human-computer interaction. She has presented her work at SXSW and the Aspen Ideas Festival, and her research has appeared in the popular media, e.g. New York Times, Wall Street Journal, NPR, The Atlantic, the BBC, and many others.  

Be curious. Be Open. Be well.

The ReidConnect-Ed Podcast is hosted by Siblings Alexis Reid and Dr. Gerald Reid, produced by and original music is written and recorded by www.Jerapy.com

*Please note that different practitioners may have different opinions- this is our perspective and is intended to educate you on what may be possible.  

• EPISODE RESOURCES

  To learn more about Dr. Gloria Mark’s work, follow her substack: https://gloriamark.substack.com and read her book Attention Span: A Groundbreaking Way to Restore Balance.

• EPISODE TAKEAWAYS

  • Rapidly switching between tasks (multi-tasking), which we tend to every 46 seconds or so, has negative consequences - it takes longer than doing things sequentially, stress goes up, and we make more errors. It can also prevent us from understanding content in a deeper way.

  • Dr. Mark describes this fast-paced switching as “kinetic attention,” which is a term she adapted from engineering.

  • Multi-tasking is also more difficult and has more negative consequences as tasks become more complex. That’s why it is important to break down tasks into smaller parts and take it one step at a time, taking breaks in between. People may assume that multitasking makes things faster and that it takes longer to do this, although the opposite is true in the long-run.

  • It’s more efficient to finish one task and move on to the next rather than constantly multitasking.

  • Dr. Mark describes the internet as a context in which there is a constantly increasing amount of content and information being added to it, much like a museum that has never-ended rooms you can go into. It leads people to like and want things they did not realize they liked or wanted.

  • When people feel emotions like anxiety, it can make it difficult to focus. This anxiety can lead to an urgency to find shortcuts or multitask as if we are ‘falling behind’, contributing to even more issues with attention and executive functions. It is important to identify feared consequences that contribute to the anxiety and ultimately these attention issues.

  • It is important to recognize what goals, motivations, and priorities are pulling our attention toward something. What we care about is where our attention goes, regardless of how important or adaptive that might be.

  • An overemphasis on constant productivity can lead to incredible stress by pressure due to sacrificing our well-being. When we prioritize our well-being we may actually have more motivation, clear thinking, energy, and creativity and brainstorming compared to when we are under constant pressure. Reframing life with well-being being more prioritized alongside productivity can help us to focus more on well-being. Otherwise we can lose touch with what we actually do care about in life, like relationships, and even burnout. That is why psychotherapy creates a context in which people can think more openly and recognize what is actually important to them and to think more clearly to address their problems.

  • It is important to pay attention to signals of burnout, like being demotivated, losing sleep, chronic health problems, stress, etc.

  • In sports, there can be an incredible amount of pressure to ‘win’ as the primary priority. However, this pressure can impact athlete’s focus. Even more, if the athlete is ‘not focused’, it may help if the coach actually tries to get in touch with what the athlete was focused on as opposed to just criticizing them for ‘not focusing’. Perhaps the athlete needs help to think differently about what they are supposed to be doing; perhaps they are burnt out; or perhaps they need to be referred to a counselor/therapist to address issues they are having that contribute to their focus challenges.

  • The mind operates by making associations, which is why the internet can be so distracting as there are constant amounts of content that becomes associated.

  • There is a social aspect to internet use such that we are often driven to look for social cues in things like emails, social media posts, and messages, as it pertains to our social standing. This motivation can drive our attention and focus.

  • We have a limited amount of attentional capacity over the course of the day that gets depleted over time.

  • It is easy to give a child technology when they are upset; however, it may lead the parent to miss out on identifying what the child actually needs (e.g., attention, food, a nap) or other activities that might actually be fulfilling. It may interfere with emotion regulation being developed in the child.

  • Mind wandering, naps, and breaks can be lost in the pursuit of nonstop focus and productivity throughout the day, although they can be so important to our well-being, replenishing our energy, and even our productivity in the long-run. 

  • Research shows we have peaks and valleys in our attention throughout the day, which can depend on the person, the type of task, amount of sleep, etc. When we are peaking in our attention, it could be a good time to do hard, creative work, rather than wasting it on distractions. When we have a valley in our attention, we may benefit from doing more rote activities (i.e., simple tasks or activities) during those times of the day that don’t require a lot of attentional resources or energy. It is natural to get distracted from time to time. The problem is that we cannot stop. 

  • We live in a society where a lot of jobs and schooling involve sitting down for such long periods of time (using screens). Nielsen reports showed that people are on some kind of media about half the day on average (that’s roughly 12 hours per day). Being so sedentary (not physically active) has negative health issues and may actually lead us to seek out stimulation but we may not do it in a more natural way, we may look to the screen for more stimulation when that may not be the type of stimulation that we need.

  • When people go outdoors, your attention is broader versus when you are on a screen, especially a phone screen, it’s a very narrowed view of attention. We lose our sense of proprioception (bodily perception of our bodies moving through space). This is an important aspect of development of motor skills and coordination, which can get lost if we are not using our bodies due to high levels of screentime. 

  • Video games and other aspects of technology may lead people to feel a false sense of control of ‘real life’ and the ‘real world’. 

  • Social media may make complex issues seem more simple in terms of how to address and resolve them when in fact there may be so many variables involved and making changes can require hard work, perspective-taking, gathering different types of information we may not be exposed to, cooperation, etc. It may not be as simple as one post may make it seem.

  • Dr. Mark originally started as an artist. She sees that creativity and art allows for lateral thinking, which can be used across all professions. It helps us to think flexibly and to see outside of the box solutions and ways of thinking. Art is also beneficial for the individual in of itself, as it can be very fulfilling to produce artwork. Creative work and hobbies can also be more conducive to getting into the Flow state compared to information work on the computer.

• TRANSCRIPTION

  Alexis Reid  00:10

  Welcome back to the Reid Connect-ED podcast. Season Four is all about connection, connection with others connection with something outside of ourselves, and the connections we make within ourselves. How we connect is dependent upon our attention, what and who we focus on and give our attention to ultimately can lead to what and who we connect with. As I always say, attention is a function of how we prioritize what we find most important. And this is all based on the resources we have available to attend and focus our attention. resources, especially these days are so taxed in limited. However, I believe our attention and time are two of our most valuable resources that can be underappreciated or easily stolen. As President Theodore Roosevelt is known to have said, "Comparison is the thief of joy". So too, can our digital fast paced culture be the thief of our attention? Or is it as we discussed in our previous episode, living in this digital age, our attention is constantly being pulled in every which way and direction. We are told, or maybe we tell others to pay attention, focus. This is especially prevalent in schools or with young people as they learn new concepts or skills. Lately, we hear from learners and those in the workforce alike. That attention is something we can all improve.

  Alexis Reid  01:28

  Coaches and parents yelling from the sidelines, teachers orienting their students parents trying to have a conversation with their child "pay attention focus", the prevalence and rate of referrals at schools has also increased. But do we really understand what attention is? Do we understand what impacts our attention? And how do we understand what we're trying to improve? Today, we're thrilled to be joined with Dr. Gloria mark, a research psychologist who's dedicated the last two decades of her career. Trying to understand attention and how it's impacted by digital technology will bring in insight from working with individuals from both the psychotherapy and executive function worlds, as we are constantly trying to help people improve the way in which they navigate to their lives. GLORIA mark is a Chancellor's Professor Emeritus at UC Irvine. For over two decades, she's researched the impact of digital media on people's lives are distractions, attention, multitasking and stress. She has authored over 200 papers and as a member of the ACM SIGCHI Academy, which recognizes leaders in her field. Her work has appeared on MPRs hidden brain, Sanjay Gupta is CNN chasing life. CBS Sunday Morning, one of our favorites in the New York Times Wall Street Journal, among many others. Her recent book is attention span about our dwindling attention in the digital age, named by the Globe and Mail as the number one best business manager book of 2023. But I believe that it's beneficial for all to read and to embrace. Gloria, we're so excited to have you here. Thank you for joining us.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  03:08

  Thank you for inviting me.

  Alexis Reid  03:10

  So Jer, do you want to get started?

  Gerald Reid  03:12

  Yeah, Gloria, this is such a joy, though the wealth of knowledge that you are going to be able to provide this conversation and we have listeners who are people we work with their parents, families, and just you know, our, our, our general audience are really interested in this topic. So you know, one of the first things we want to really want to set the stage what we try to start broad with our conversations, and we want to try to kind of narrow it down from there. So you know, the first question I want to ask is, what is attention? As Alexa said in the introduction, you know, we talked about attention, we want people to focus better pay more attention, but can you give us kind of like, almost like a one size one on one idea about what is attention, then we'll kind of dive in deeper from there, you know, what are the types of attention that we can have and enact? Just to kind of help us to set the stage for this conversation?

  Dr. Gloria Mark  04:00

  Yeah, So. So it's a great question. And, you know, people have studied the mechanics of attention for over 100 years, but very few people actually stop and consider what attention actually is. And I like to go back to William James, who's considered the father of psychology. And William James talks about attention as you know, giving your whole mind your mind's resources, the the concentration and focalization on some thing, right. So William James, didn't quite get it. All right, because what we've discovered since then, is that there are different kinds of attention. So he was talking about attention that's voluntary where people are in control. There, it's also known as controlled processing. But there's another kind of attention, which is automatic. And in our digital age, we experience a lot of that. And automatic attention is when we our minds are drawn to something. Some stimulus, it could be a notification, it could be something flashing on your screen, it could be the sight of your smartphone, right, and I have my smartphone right here, and I'm looking at it. And we respond to the stimulate. And we can't help but respond. And that's automatic. And this is in contrast to controlled processing, which involves a lot of effort to be able to focus this, this doesn't involve any effort at all. And so that's why people can do things like play mindless games for many, many hours, because it's effortless. Right? And it's, it's, it's rote, and it's automatic. So the these are different kinds of attention.

  Gerald Reid  06:06

  Hmm. And I think there's, it sounds like there's kind of a parallel to the word the unconscious that we use in psychotherapy that our attention could be pulled in different directions, as you said, in a way that's not conscious, it's not willful, it's just kind of happening automatically as a reaction. It's certainly important for us to remember, a psychotherapist will look I'm going to kind of circle back to that later in the episode. But I think it's an important kind of comparisons to what you're saying.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  06:33

  Yes, absolutely.

  Alexis Reid  06:35

  I love how you talk about kinetic attention in your book, because I think it is really representative of the way we live in our life, I talk about how we have this frenetic motion, like everybody's constantly in motion, even when we're not in motion a lot these days. And I think when we think about attention from a different perspective, and I hope you can share a little bit more about your definition of kinetic attention, I think it helps us to realize that it's really difficult to capture our attention or to have more mindful focus of it. Because of so many different variables and stimuli in the environment.

  Gerald Reid  07:13

  real quick, I just want to make a quick point, because I was thinking about the internet. And I was thinking, you know how the Internet I think you've mentioned this glory in your book and Lexus did an unbelievable job of outlining your book is that the internet is just an endless amount of information, I think you said in your book, Loreal. It's just, it's constantly being fed more and more and more, it's like infinite amount of information, and just nothing has ever existed like that, where you can just keep feeding it more and more, more and more. And I was thinking to myself, being within the internet, kind of like when you're, like in the matrix are kind of plugged into it when you're, when you're using the internet. It's almost like you're you're entering into any, like a brain that has like severe ADHD, because it's just like information everywhere. And how do you make sense of it? How do you navigate it? How do you prioritize, as Alexis always says, How do you categorize it all? It's like, and I feel like, you know, what is that doing to our brains to enter into a world that basically is like a severely ADHD brain?

  Dr. Gloria Mark  08:16

  Yeah, that's, that's right. So, you know, kinetic attention. The idea of four came out of my research. So, you know, as I was observing people over the years, when they're using their devices, I didn't expect that people were going to be switching their attention as rapidly as, as we observed. So, you know, initially 20 years ago, we found that people spent about two and a half minutes on on any window, right, that means any application or any device, before switching, and then fast forward in the last six years or so people are spending about 47 seconds on average. So if you're observing a person, you watch them just continually switching applications, they're switching windows, they're working on something and then suddenly they switch to email, then they switch to the web, then they switch to a different document. And I was searching for some kind of word to describe this phenomenon. And I, it was very difficult to find some kind of descriptor, and it suddenly occurred to me in physics, the idea of kinetic energy, which is very dynamic. It seemed to be a pretty good way to describe what we were observing. So it's, it's very different than attending to something for a long period of time and getting into a kind of deep focus by It's just really bouncing around your mind is bouncing from one, one app one window to another. And it's it's like you talked about the yes, the internet is this, you know, I describe it as this museum with endless rooms, you know, you, if you've been to a museum before, you may not want to go back, but because the internet is, you know, because of its open architecture, anyone can contribute. And it just keeps growing and growing. And so there's always something new, that can be experienced, and this contributes to your kinetic attention.

  Alexis Reid  10:43

  It's so interesting, because in my work, especially with younger learners, the children often have a difficulty in, you know, cognitive flexibility, being able to switch to be able to transition. And exactly what you all are describing is this constant shifting. And I hear it all the time, especially from the young people I work with, and even the older ones, that a lot of times, it's, they're, they're thinking that they're multitasking, they're able to do so many different things at the same time. And I know there's this myth of multitasking, that I love for you to share based on the research and the work that you've done. But it's so fascinating that sometimes the thing that's most difficult for students to do, especially when they have goal directed tasks is something that they're constantly doing in their leisure and entertainment time, which is so fascinating.

  Gerald Reid  11:32

  You know what, this is great, so I think exactly what you both are saying is, they're so good at unconsciously, cognitively being flexible and switching between them, but they're not doing it intentionally. And you're saying that when they actually had to do it intentionally for a purpose in a very adaptive healthful way. They struggle with it, perhaps because they're so used to unconsciously reacting to stimuli and switching and being flexible in that type of way. But it's not very, it's not necessarily intentional and helpful.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  12:02

  Yeah, and it's also a matter of what they're interested in. Right. So our attention, as you point out, it's very goal directed. And it's also driven by what we're interested in. And children have learned a habit of being on the internet, you know, watching videos. And so they, you know, they've acquired this habit, and as a result that's developed into an interest for them. And so they seek out what they're interested in. And it happens to be a lot of social media videos, and so on.

  Alexis Reid  12:43

  I love the reminder that you share in the book too, about, you know, kind of like this technological and digital snacking, that we're taking little bite sized bits of things, but we're not necessarily totally consuming. And in my work, especially when I'm working with educators, and parents, I'm talking so much about how we're not necessarily getting to deeper levels of learning, there's so much surface level interaction with information that's happening. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your research and your work. Thinking about how deeply folks are getting when, when they're, when you're measuring how much time on task that they were focusing their attention and how they were feeling as a result of how they were focused. And there's a number of different studies that you report in your book. So you could pick and choose which one makes the most sense, I guess, to address this.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  13:37

  So when people spend a short amount of time on something, they're they're not deeply processing it, right. And if you're switching every 47 seconds, on average, you're you're not taking the time to fully absorb and reflect on that material, because that requires time. Right? And we, we can't do things. We can't do everything in a very fast way. Right? Some things you can grasp very quickly and intuitively. But other things takes us a while to be able to, to get into it. Earlier, you talked about the Myth of Multitasking, and that's related to it. There. There's this idea that humans are capable of parallel processing, do two things at once. We really can't. What we are doing is switching our attention. And we're you know, if you're on a Zoom meeting, you can't do that and do your email. At the same time. A child cannot do their homework, and at the same time, watch a TV show. Right? What they're doing is they're switching their attention. And some people feel that it's a It's a badge of honor to be able to multitask, they feel they can accomplish more, they can be more productive. But we're actually doing less when we're switching our attention so rapidly. We know from just decades of research that people make more errors, when they multitask, we know that from laboratory research, we know that from research in the wild, that when people are continually attending to different things, they they neglect some things and make errors, we know that it takes longer to accomplish any single task, if you're switching among them, compared to if you were to finish one task, and then begin another one, finish that and then begin another. So doing things sequentially, we can actually do them quicker than switching between them. Because every time you switch your attention, there's what's called a switch cost. And a switch cost is the extra time it takes to reorient to that new task. And, and also effort. There's there's effort involved as well. And the third reason why multitasking should should not be considered a badge of honor to wear because it causes stress. And it's not just correlational, but it actually causes stress. And again, we know that from many decades of laboratory research, we know that for even my own research where people were heart rate monitors. And, you know, we we track them using their devices. And we could see at the exact times when their attention was shifting rapidly, that their stress went up as measured by the heart rate monitors. And of course, people subjectively report feeling more stressed. So switching our attention so rapidly. Like that is just not beneficial. MORRIS And you talked about being able to deeply process things, we we just can't,

  Gerald Reid  17:19

  I think in your book you had mentioned, the more complex the task is, the harder, the more that switching is a negative has a negative consequence. Meaning that like if you're doing a higher and higher complex task, the switching is going to have real negative impact in terms of your ability to do it efficiently and accurately. And so I wonder if you know, people, in some ways to compensate for that, try to simplify what they're doing. And to try to make it seem like it's more simple than it really is. Because I think, you know, that makes sense.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  17:52

  Well, one way to simplify tasks is to break it up into simpler components. And if if you really want to, or you you need to take a break from a task, there are certain break points in a task. And those are the best times to take a pause. And a break point could be anything from say you're you're reading something, the end of a chapter, right, that's, that's a break point, you've, you've finished that material, take a break, before you move on to the next. Or, you know, if you're typing something, you know, you you finish an idea, you finish a section writing section. And then you can take a pause. So complexity couldn't be made simpler. And, you know, it's, it's like in project management, if you're familiar with that, you know, if you're working on extremely complex project, the way to tackle that project is to break it down into simpler and smaller components. And then you you can focus on each of these components, right and do those well. And then, you know, as opposed to trying to tackle this huge complex monster of a project.

  Gerald Reid  19:21

  I love what you said before is that people probably assume that because they're multitasking, they're gonna get things done faster. You're suggesting that that's actually not true that it's actually take things perhaps longer. And so you know, I think sometimes Alexis, you work with individuals, I work with individuals, they must feel like breaking things down into steps, breaking things down into smaller chunks to simplify a larger complex tests. They are kind of averse to it. They're like, Oh, that's gonna take too long. I don't want to go through those steps to do that. I just want to get it done. And I think you know, part of what we're seeing is like I think people assume multitasking is going to make everything quicker like quick quick, quick multitasking will test and And I think what you know, you're, you're suggesting from your expertise is, it's actually going to make everything in the long run slower. So, kind of seeing, seeing the benefits of doing these things upfront is actually going to make your life easier in the long run, it's hard for people to realize that until they actually do it, Alexis and I, in our work, you know, sometimes people gotta kind of learn the hard way and realize, like, Okay, what I'm doing is not working until you actually do it and employ the strategies and see the benefit. That's when you really get motivated to do when you see that actually helps and works.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  20:30

  Yes, that's, that's absolutely right. Yeah, it's about changing our practices, changing what we're used to. And, you know, people might be used to multitasking, especially, when you have a lot of tasks that you have to accomplish, you have a lot of deadlines. You know, I think it's probably natural to think about switching doing a little bit on this task switching to something else switching to something else. And we feel like we're making headway on all of those different deadlines. But the rational thing to do is to instead, finish one task, and then switch and start on something else.

  Gerald Reid  21:12

  Yeah, I'll make one more point. And Alexis wants to jump in. I think it's a lot of it, too, is driven by anxiety. We work with individuals who have ADHD. And you know, I'm always trying to determine how much of this is an attentional problem versus how much of this is an emotional problem that's contributing to your attentional problems. And it could be both. But, you know, from my perspective, as a therapist, working with emotions, and understanding people's thought processes and emotions, how that affects attention. You know, I think when people get overwhelmed, when there's so much, or the things are so complex, I think it's almost like an emotion, it's an emotional reaction to just switch or to try to find shortcuts, or to do all the things that we're saying are not necessarily helpful in the long run. So, you know, my job and Alexis's job is really we try to help people to kind of tone down their anxiety or help to understand what their fears are, you know, could be I'm afraid now, what are you afraid of, because a lot of times, when people have anxiety, they don't even know what they're afraid of, they're just reacting, Oh, I gotta get all my work done, I gotta get all A's, they have to do the best at this in the class or this or in my job. And they don't even realize that there's like a fear, there's an underlying fear, they're afraid of something, some consequence in the future. And so to slow them down into the kind of process that fear and that fear of consequence, helps them to actually manage that anxiety that I think makes their mind all disorganized, which eventually leads to all this disorganized thinking of switching and jumping around and all that stuff. So I think that's an important part that I think gets lost in how we help people with ADHD. Sometimes we think of it, in my opinion, at least, you know, you just got to kind of fix their attention when I think sometimes it's really can contribute to the attentional  difficulties in the first place.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  22:51

  Oh, that's, that's such a great point.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  22:54

  When we're experiencing anxiety, it's so hard to focus. And, and we get into the cycle, because we we get, we're anxious, we have a difficult time focusing that makes us even more anxious. And we feel that oh, my gosh, we're falling, I'm falling behind. What can I do so we get ourselves into this kind of vicious cycle. And it's such a great point to be able to go back and find what the roots of that anxiety are, right as a way to help people to focus better control their attention better.

  Alexis Reid  23:33

  So, I think that's why, you know, a lot of the work that you've done, and the research you've done in the field, Gloria is so important, because getting a biofeedback and being able to slow people down to pay attention, to where their attention is going. And what maybe is the impetus for it to shift is so fascinating. Because in our day to day, I think we just constantly are kind of on autopilot a lot of times to get through all the things that we need to get done. And one of my colleagues and friends over at Boston Children's Dr. Fogler, loves to say, and I've adopted this on so many different levels. You know, "you could do all the things but at what expense". And I think we don't take the time to pause and to check in with ourselves and say, at what expense am I doing all these things, and I'm grateful in my position enroll for the work I do in my private practice, because I get to slow people down and help them have those conversations and the inner, inner metacognitive thinking processes as you describe in the book too. I love how you have the emphasis and focus on it's just not about building attention to biohack ourselves or to be more productive. But really how do we pay attention how to take care of ourselves as we're functioning in this world?

  Dr. Gloria Mark  24:46

  Yeah, it's really about reframing.  The whole discussion about attention. And you know, I think it's our whole culture needs to reframe how we think about productivity and attention. Because there there really is this emphasis on productivity. I see this among students among young people, even, you know, colleagues that I've had in academia, also in industry. And I just see how we're driving ourselves crazy, from all this pressure to to be productive. And it is there is a trade off there. And the trade off is we sacrifice our well being. Right. And so what if we put our wellbeing first. And, you know, there, there is plenty of research that shows that when people experience well being that they're more creative, they can do more, right, you can do more, when you feel positive, you have more energy, more motivation. You have better divergent thinking, which is like brainstorming, you can think of better ideas, you can be innovative. And when we're, you know, under the gun, and you know, under pressure, of course, that's when anxiety comes up. And this can mask clear thinking.

  Gerald Reid  26:20

  Yeah, I love what you're both are saying it is a reframe is so important. And that openness, you kind of when your mind is open, you're more creative. I think Alexis talks, you know, we always have conversations Lexie, my sister always talks about, you know, when I'm not working, I get these, these ideas, they just come to me when I'm not working, like, that's great. You know, that's, for me, I write songs. And like, when I'm just allowing my mind, and I'm just noticing what my mind is doing. I'm like, Oh, how's my mind thinking about this? What does this feel like? You know, that's one all these songs come to me. And for a lot of creative people that that's what happens, I think a lot of people could be more creative if they do that. And also, you know, in psychotherapy, my job in psychotherapy really is to help people to not be this, like pressured focus about what their life is doing to be productive to do this too, that is to actually allow their mind to open and that's feeling comfortable, that's feeling more positive, you know, in the relationship in the context of sitting in the room with me, to help their mind kind of go where it needs to go. And, you know, if you're constantly as you say, in the book, your attention goes where your goals are. And if you're constantly focus on only being productive, then your mind is always going to focus on that, because that's what your goal is. And if you don't reframe that goal, you're going to be stuck paying attention to only be productive every time and you end up you know, losing the very things that are meaningful into your life along the way, including your health, including your relationships, and all that and a lot of therapy is actually helping people get more in touch with actually do care about. And as you said, you know, society could be too overly focused on productivity. And that's, you know, an unfortunate thing that could lead to perfectionism, and all these other things that could lead to burnout, as you say, in stress, which, you know, in the short term, it could feel good to be productive like that, in the long term, you know, could definitely affect you, for sure. Real quick.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  28:12

  And exhaustion. And eventual burnout is a very serious problem. And, and it's also it's not uncommon. And so it's it's really important that we pay attention to signals of, of exhaustion, that can lead to burnout. When when people experience burnout, you know, it's just, they are demotivated, they can develop chronic health problems. So it's, it's a very serious condition. .

  Gerald Reid  28:45

  Absolutely, it's so important. And I want there's and I know, you know, based on your book for for all those listening, you know, read Dr. Mark's book, you know, then she shares, you know, personal anecdotes about how important this is. And it's very, you know, impactful and meaningful to read through that in the beginning of the book. So, certainly do. I, you know, I work with athletes, and, you know, I'm gonna relate this to athletes, I think it's a very, very clear connection to how coaches, Coach athletes, because, you know, if you think about pressure, like athletics and sports, like that's the pinnacle of pressure, right? You know, we have to win, we have to win, you know, a lot of coaches state, especially at the highest Higher, higher levels. It's like, everybody feels pressured, oh, to win to win to win, and there's a lot riding on it in the people's minds and careers and all this stuff, right. So, you know, one of the things that you really made a good point of when when there is all this pressure, you know, your attention could be negatively affected by all that pressure. And one of the things I want to, you know, kind of make up almost like a PSA for coaches. When your athlete is not paying attention. In order you feel like they're not paying attention, try to maybe reframe what might be going through that person's mind and what might be happening for them. Because I think a lot of coaching is about focus on what you're supposed to do. Like that's kind of like one of the biggest things coaches try to get their athletes to do just focus on what you need to do and do it. But what they don't do as coaches as much what I think could be more integrated into coaching is try to understand why they weren't what they actually were focusing on. That wasn't what you wanted them to focus on, instead of just saying, focus, you're not focusing hard enough, you're not trying hard enough. I think Alexis talks about this with students a lot like find out what they were focused on, that was actually the wrong thing to focus on. And help them to realize why they were focusing on the wrong thing. Maybe they were focused on the wrong aspect of a play that they were supposed to enact. Or maybe they were distracted by something that they thought was more important. Or maybe they were just tired. And they're, as you said, burnt out. And they actually need to have a conversation with the coach to say, Hey, you got to, you know, rest better. Let's talk about how you can get more rest or, or stress in your life, let's see how you can get a counselor to kind of work through your, you know, your emotional and mental health challenges. So I think, you know, sports is such a great context. And even, you know, in teaching, too, as you talked about Lex, I think sports is such a great context to re re interpret what it means to pay attention and how to help people with because like I said, coaches are constantly focused, pay attention, do what you're supposed to do. And it misses the point about everything we're just talking about in this conversation.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  31:24

  I love this approach. It's such a comprehensive approach. And it just seems to me that it's, it's a much deeper way to try to get people to really be able to pay attention better, right, as opposed to simply blocking out and ignoring distracting stimuli. Instead, well, let's take a moment and turn and see what are those distracting stimuli? And why are they distracting? Yeah, so what a great, holistic way to think about focus,

  Alexis Reid  32:00

  I think that's the key. And we really try our best both on the podcast and our work, to be able to think about all of the component parts, right, and you talk a lot about this in your book, that it's not just one thing, I have a hard time with social media, where things are getting distilled down to like, these are the three things you need to do. And you'll be able to be more productive or feel better, live a longer life or whatever it might be. But it really is so much more to that, you know, in you highlight a couple of key themes in your book, I wonder if you can talk a little bit about what are those main themes that we need to pay better attention to, to be able to reclaim and maybe have a little more directive control over our attention. You know, the those key things that you come back to it, especially at the end of the book that you're you kind of point out that it's not just one thing, there is the cognitive resources, there are the personality traits, there's the environment, all these different aspects of what impacts our attention.

  Gerald Reid  32:56

  The traps, like the identity trap, stuff like that. Yeah.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  32:59

  Yeah, there, there are so many things that affect our attention in this world. Maybe I can try to summarize it. Yeah, let's let's start with personality. Some people are born lucky. With personality traits of being high in conscientiousness, and low in impulsivity. These, these are lucky people, but just because you're not born with with conscientiousness trait doesn't mean that you can't change. And absolutely, you can develop a skill of learning how to be more directed, and how to be less impulsive. You know, we're fighting against tech. And tech is designed to distract us. And I write in the total that how, in fact, the whole internet is designed for distraction, because of the node and link structure in the internet makes it just so easy for us to surf the internet. And once we start surfing, it's so hard to stop because, you know, the mind is designed in a way that we think by associations.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  34:21

  Of course, you know, we go off on a spree every time we started surfing the internet. We we are social creatures. And you know, of course, there's many things on the internet that tap into social dynamics and we respond to social dynamics, such as their you know, power. We we check our emails because we want to find out if our manager is trying to contact us and we want to demonstrate that we're on the ball. Yeah, we want If we want to be in good standing with our colleagues, we care about social capital. And so of course, we respond to email, texting, phone calls, social media. So so there is this this social aspect of internet use. We have limited attentional resources. And you know, I like to use the metaphor of a, we have this tank. And if you have, if you're lucky enough to get a good night's sleep, which we all should be doing, then you can start off your day with a full tank of cognitive resources. Think of it as attentional capacity. And throughout the day, this attentional capacity drains based on things we do, such as shifting our attention rapidly and getting stressed, or experiencing anxiety that can drain that tank. And we we get ourselves into this kind of vicious cycle, because when we, when our tank drains, we start to experience cognitive fatigue. And when we have fatigue, we're not as good as filtering out distractions, as we are when we're really, you know, have this this full tank of, of resources. And I believe you both study executive function, and you know how important executive function is to help people help keep people on track. Right. And young people. For young people, they're developing executive function. And some kids when they're very young, when they're put in front of the internet, they have a very hard time controlling, where they place their attention because their executive function isn't quite mature enough yet. And so they're, they're very prone to distractions.

  Alexis Reid  37:03

  Gloria, I wonder what you think about this, I did a parenting talk a couple weeks ago, and a parent asked me, you know, when's Lynch and I went, we give our children, smartphones. And this was an elementary school. And I was I said, you know, this might sound controversial, but I think you need to wait until they're teenagers, at least I said, you're giving them literally the whole world in their hands that they have access to without much control. I said, you know, whenever I see a child, especially a young child, and believe me, this is not about judgment, it's just about building and developing skills, and thinking about neural connections. But when I see a young child in a boring or difficult situation, can't get a phone or a screen. I told them, I always think of that as if you're giving them a pacifier, right? Like, it's almost as if we're saying you can't regulate yourself. Here's something to do it for you External, which is an external regulator, which I get sometimes we're in difficult situations, I don't want to judge parenting. And we also need to be mindful of how that's reinforcing. You know, when I don't feel good when I am bored. What do I do? And I think boredom is another missed opportunity to really build and develop skills. And in your book, he talks, he talks so much about emotional and self regulation. And I really appreciate that. I wonder what your thoughts are.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  38:22

  I'm with you. I do not believe that children should have smartphones. You know, my my kids were raised without television. Yeah. That they were raised in the time before smartphones. Yeah. And so they, of course, they rebelled, you know, their, their friends all had TV. And I was always surprised how my kids were up on the latest TV shows. It was only because they heard about it from their friends. And so they, they rebelled. And we resisted. And I'll tell you a story. I wrote about this in the book that we, my husband and I were on sabbatical in Berlin. And we rented a flat that had two TV sets. And one time I was trying to work and my kids were hovering around me, and you know, I wasn't able to work. And I said to them, go watch TV. And you know what they said? They said, No, it's boring. And then I realized that I had really done something right that all those years of restricting them from TV and giving them books to read. Was it paid off? And so I what I would say to parents and and I get it, I understand Parenting is hard. Very, it's really one of the difficult, hardest and most challenging things we can do. You know, I would say, think about replacing activities. And it is very easy to give a kid a smartphone or a tablet to entertain them. But think instead of what else you can give to the child, you can give the child books, give the child a book, or send send the child outside, right? I mean, they're, that think about how you can replace that child's interest with something else. Because when we give smartphones and tablets to kids at a very young age, and it develops a habit. Yeah. And it becomes an extremely small, strong habit. And there's expectations that the moment that a child is bored, that child wants to have something, some quick fix, like watching a YouTube video. But there are other things that can provide more rewarding and fulfilling things for that child, then then smartphones,

  Alexis Reid  41:13

  and sometimes they need an actual snack, hopefully, one that's nutritious, might actually help them with how they're feeling in that moment, too, rather than just a digital snack.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  41:23

  Yeah, you know, I was actually surprised when I my kids were very young. And we lived in Germany. And I was very surprised that there was a, like a headmaster of a school who said, you know, when your child acts up, it's because they're hungry. Which had never ever had occurred to me. And yeah, it can work wonders.

  Alexis Reid  41:51

  Yeah, it's so true. Going back to those biomarkers of understanding like what we actually need in different situations. You know, we talked on a couple episodes that even when I feel like a disconnection and people, sometimes I go to social media, because it helps me to feel more connected to people that I don't see all the time, right. And there's this like, understandable urge and desire to do these things. And I love how you talk about being able to just, you know, have those opportunities to mind one or two to kind of downgrade your attentional level to not have to be as focused in a moment. And that actually helps to replenish us too. And we talked a lot about sleep, we had a great episode, Dr. Jade Wu, from the Duke sleep clinic came on who's a friend and colleague of ours, and talked about mind wandering and naps and breaks. And I wonder from your research, if you could share a little bit about that, too. How breaks in between downgrading the things we pay attention to to more rote tasks actually helps to replenish our attention.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  42:53

  Yeah, it's it's so important. I mean, it's another myth to think that we should try to achieve nonstop focus over the day. And, you know, if you search, if you search the internet, you'll see all kinds of consultants and programs that are designed for you to, you know, focus 10 hours straight focus.

  Alexis Reid  43:17

  No, thank you,

  Dr. Gloria Mark  43:18

  You'll find these. And, you know, we, we can't focus nonstop, in the same way that we can't physically take on some hard tasks, like lifting weights nonstop, without getting exhausted. And so we need breaks, right? And what our research showed was that people have personal rhythms that we have peaks and valleys. In our attentional focus, there are some times in the day, when we're at our peak, and it's it's individual, no depends on things like Chrono type, if you're an early type, late type, depends on how much sleep you got, depends on the tasks you're doing. You know, the the meetings you point to it depends on a number of things. But we do have these rhythms. And so get to know when your peak focus time is, don't waste it. Don't use that time to do email, or social media, but use it to do really hard creative work. And then get to know when your valleys are. And that's that's when we should be taking a break. Right? Or that's when you can relax and you can do rote kinds of activities and these road activities could be ... It could be a simple game. But I want to emphasize that I am not advocating that we play simple games for a long period of time, but for a few minutes, like you have a meeting that's coming up in five minutes. can use it to calm your mind. settle down, relax in those five minutes before, before you start that meeting, some people do knitting. One person who I spoke to has this screen in his office that he bounces a ball against. And that that's his kind of rote activity. And it's his way of just calming his his mind down. So there's nothing inherently bad. In in doing some simple activity that's, that can calm us down and social media is fine as long as we don't go down a rabbit hole. There's, it's human and natural for us to be distracted, right? We're human beings. The problem is not that we're distracted or that we do these rote activities. The problem is that when we can't stop, do you

  Gerald Reid  45:54

  feel like because we become so sedentary as a society, where we're sitting more than we ever have, that that context has made it so that we're always looking for stimulation, because we're not actually moving around where it would be more stimulating to like, go for a walk more, or like go out and play like, because we're always sitting down for jobs for school for this for that, that it's almost like our brains are craving some sort of stimulation because we're always sedentary?

  Dr. Gloria Mark  46:25

  That's, that's such a great question. And I think it's hard to disentangle being sedentary and being on a screen. So I just saw the, the Nielsen total audience report. This was for 2020, it was done before the pandemic. And it shows that people are on some kind of media, about half the day about 12 hours and 20 minutes on average. And this media is, is everything from it could be radio could be computers, TV, smartphones, so people are really attached to media. And so it's hard to separate. Yes, we are sedentary. And in fact, in a study that we did, was actually right before the pandemic we found. And this is using sensors so we could get really precise measures and information that information workers, which is what you are what I am. Many people are they they spend 90% of their day sedentary. And it used to not be that way. Right? People spent much less of their time just sitting down. But when people are sitting down, what are they doing, they're in front of a screen, most of the time, those 12 hours a day. A good part of that is that people are sedentary. And so yes, if people were moving around, they would have a chance to be observing stimuli in the environment. Of course, you shouldn't be on a smartphone. If you're moving around, right?

  Alexis Reid  48:14

  Especially in Boston, there's so many college students walking around just looking down all the time. And I quietly and politely say "look up" as I pass by them.

  Gerald Reid  48:23

  I think Nicole Dr. Moyen on the physical exercise episode we did last season, said like you know when you're when you leave the room, when you go outside, your view is panoramic. Like you're you can see a wide scope of your environment. When you're looking at a screen your focus is narrow. And I guess I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that being. I mean, I think screens nowadays are like humongous, like Rob screen over there. Or producer the screen is like what, like 40 inches. But still like I think it's something about like kind of narrowing your focus on one area versus when you're outside in nature. Like you kind of get a panoramic, full, you know, 360 view of what's around you.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  49:05

  Yeah, I think that's right. But I also think when our attention is on our screens, we lose that sense of proprioception of bodily perception, yes. And so when you're moving around when you're exercising, you know, you do have a sense of your body moving through space. And especially for young children, it's so important because it helps them learn, you know, basic motor skills and you know, coordination, but when we're sitting in front of a screen, we don't have that sense, and we're not learning skills of coordination.

  Gerald Reid  49:47

  interesting. This is a good point that's

  Alexis Reid  49:49

  so interesting, especially with the kids with ADHD that I work with that oftentimes they do lack you know, a suitable adequate amount of proprioceptive perception to be able to do They keep their bodies in balance throughout their day. That's why they're often in constant motion, I find it's such a really good point. Yeah.

  Gerald Reid  50:09

  Right, they don't practice kind of using your body, then you're gonna have a hard time, you know, regulating your body.

  Alexis Reid  50:15

  And these are the kids that are most likely drawn to a screen as a point of a break for them. Right, rather than, you know, they enjoy getting outside and running around. But oftentimes, they gravitate more to a screen than just the physical activity.

  Gerald Reid  50:29

  Great point, glory, there's one last point that I want to make, and maybe, you know, Alexis can kind of wrap up the episode with some, some key things you want to get in here. But I really, when the video games came out, you know, when I was a kid, growing up, video games became really big. And I always felt like video games was kind of like this experience. As I got older, I'm like, you know, video games are kind of like a false sense of control. And I feel like when you're using video games, you you kind of learn how to control things. Like it takes time to learn how the game works, the strategy of the game, the environment of the game, and you can kind of learn it and keep doing it over and over and repeat and repeat. You know, you lose, you come back, reset, you keep going, going, going, you kind of like, you kind of figure out how to control the game. I think the internet social media is much like that now, too, you feel like you have so much control over what you're doing, and how you're manipulating things in the virtual reality. And I've always had this thought about how that affects people's ability to navigate the real world outside of this virtual world. And I'm wondering if you know, it makes people more anxious to deal with real life in moment. challenges, issues, things that come up where you feel out of control, because you're so used to manipulating everything digitally, that you feel like, oh, I have no control here, because there's no button to push to deal with this situation.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  51:55

  That's a very interesting idea. It's, it's true, you are the operator, when you're, you know, in front of that console, and doing that video game. But in the real world, you're you're not the necessarily the operator, you might be an operator of yourself, but you can't control other people, you can't necessarily control the environment. So it's, it's an interesting thought. I think that I mean, that the value of spending time in the environment is, especially with other people, is that people learn signals. And when you're with other people, you learn social signals, you learn how to interpret them, you learn how you can, you know, interact and talk with other people. And you learn everything from turn taking to, you know, what's appropriate to talk about, but when you're playing a video game, you know, it's not it's not always a two way interaction it can be I know that some video games involve pretty intense coordination. But if if you're not playing a game, collaboratively with other people is just you and and the game. And you're not learning the same kinds of signals, as you might learn in in real life, especially when interacting with other people.

  Alexis Reid  53:31

  It's so interesting. I had a student yesterday, who wanted to take a break by watching a video gamer video game. And I had a press pause, I said, Let's just assess the situation. What are we noticing here? And he was like, Well, I like playing this game. I said, Yeah, I totally get that is it but this guy is in room by himself right now playing a video game talking to no one, and you're watching him do this? Like, what is the value here? What are we actually benefiting from it, and he was just enthralled it. But it was a very interesting exploration and a point of curiosity to kind of engage in that, you know, oftentimes, we become so isolating when we feel like we have the most control, we've become so isolated. When we feel like we have the most control, which I think limits our experiences and exposure. .

  Gerald Reid  54:20

  Definitely, and complex issues in life are like uncomfortable and challenging. And there's a lot of nuance to them. There's a lot of dynamics involved, as you said, Gloria, you know, in terms of interpersonally, working with people, and I think when you think you can solve some big societal problem by making a post and maybe there is there certainly could be benefit gets information out. I think there's huge benefits right? To information being getting out. But like if you're going to enter into a situation in the real world that's going to try to, you know, address a complex issue that's going to like it could be way more complex than one social media post makes it to be that actually solve the problem to actually make progress to actually deal with all the variables that are involved in all these different perspectives of different people who are involved in this complex issue, to take all those things into account and to find a reasonable solution that's going to work and make sense, and is extremely hard to do. And it's very uncomfortable. And you have to work with people collaboratively to do that. And I think sometimes there's an overlap, there's an idea by looking at a post that, oh, it's simple, and we can fix, we can solve this problem by posting or looking at a post and to actually make progress on a very challenging complex issue is very hard. And people have to work together and deal with all these variables, there's so many variables involved, that aren't always taken into account, because it's hard to look at all the variables, it's hard for, you know, a very high intellectual person to take all these variables into account and to make a decision, that's going to be a reasonable solution to a complex problem. I think that's one of the challenges of social media as well. Yeah,

  Dr. Gloria Mark  56:00

  I was thinking it's the difference between a closed system and an open system. And so this, this young person who chooses to watch another video, players are playing the game, that becomes a closed system, because they're not getting an open system is when you get information from a lot of different sources. And this, this young person is simply watching another closed system, right, this other person playing the game, and they're not learning the information they would learn, if they were in, in the external world and moving around and talking with a lot of different people, and doing a lot of different activities other than video gaming, they're, they're exposing themselves to new information, that and then they have to learn how to interact with this new information.

  Gerald Reid  57:00

  right? Like, take take bullying as an example. Everybody in a most people, if they were to think deeply in their heart, they don't want bullying to happen. Like, you know, people can be mean and stuff. But if you were to look on deep down and people I don't think people are truly that mean that they really think bullying is a good thing. I think most people don't want bullying to happen. But it's a complex issue that can happen in a school and, and it's great that we can make a post and say stop bullying, make bullying stop, it's not good. But to really enact in a school system to help bullying to stop is a very complex problem. And so I'm just using this as an example that I think sometimes social media can simplify how to how to fix a complex problem, when the reality is would help. You know, bullying. Number one is a relational dynamic thing. It's very complicated. And you got to figure out how to how to not only address the bully, but also the person being targeted the people around them, the culture of the school, all these things, it's a very complex thing that takes you know, work effort, uncomfortable feelings, perspective, taking, you know, complex critical thinking, collaboration, all these things. And I guess, you know, I'm going on a tangent here, but I feel like you know, like, really helping something get better is, is hard work and complex. And sometimes social media can pull our attention to simplifying things that are not so simple.

  Alexis Reid  58:16

  I think that's why I love your book so much, because it's not just picking apart one study and one piece of information, it's really looking at the broader landscape of where our world society, a lot of different influences are coming into play, to help us just pay attention that we need to preserve and almost respect our own attention as a resource that we have something that is a part of us, as a human, to be able to understand what we do with it, and how we use our attention to be able to contribute to the broader world and finding our own purpose and how we direct our attention. So I'm so grateful for all the work that you do. And all the information that you provided, I mean, this book for those of you who haven't read it, yet, it dives so deeply into the history of this systems, thinking about the cognitive processes, thinking about the interrelationships of so much. And it really just brings about these ideas that we need to pay better attention to ourselves, right and figure out what we really need. And, Gloria, before we wrap up, I have to say one of the things I love most about the people who have played such an influential role in my life, mentors, professors, teachers and guides. They're there people who look at the bigger picture and this is why I think I was so connected to your book too, is because you look at the bigger picture of so much and I know that your original training was more in the arts in it, it shifted into you know, the cognitive processes and psychology. And I wonder if you could just share a little bit about your journey because I think it pulls all the pieces of everything we've been talking about together and hopefully will serve as an inspiration for others. too.

  Dr. Gloria Mark  1:00:01

  So I did start out as an artist I have my undergraduate degree is a bachelor of fine arts degree. And never thought I would do anything else. But it is hard to make a living as an artist. And I also had skills and math. So I thought, well, maybe I'll leverage those. And I'll, I'll do something where it would be easier to get a job. But you know, since then, and going back and looking at my art training, I realize how valuable it's been for me. And it's because in art, you, you learn what's called lateral thinking, where you connect two very different ideas together and come up with a discovery, something new. And that's not taught in science. Some people are good at it, and some aren't so good at it. But it's this kind of lateral thinking, is a skill that can be brought into any profession. And it's something I mean, it could be used in, in teaching could be used in business. And, and in science. And so I'm, I'm such an advocate for, for, for people learning something in the arts. And I really think that school curriculum, I know that a lot of arts curriculum is cut out of K through 12 education. But it's so important to keep that in and for young people to find some something that they're really passionate about. And could be painting, drawing, sculpture, dance music, I mean, there's so many areas in the arts, that writing that can make a difference. And so it certainly has helped me and has taught me that just the importance of being creative, in whatever I do.

  Gerald Reid  1:02:15

  I love that, Gloria, and let me ask you this question. Aside from the cognitive benefits of it, what are the emotional benefits of being involved in art?

  Dr. Gloria Mark  1:02:24

  it's a trend tremendous fulfillment, you feel very, very rewarded and fulfilled. The other experience is that when you do something, in art, it's so easy to become immersed and get into a state of flow. And a lot of people mistakenly believe that, oh, I should be in flow all the time. Someone who's doing information work, and, you know, thinks, Why can't I get into flow? You know, information work is not conducive for getting people into flow. But doing something creative. Yes. When I did art, I regularly got into flow. And it's it's a deeply it is an emotional experience, because you feel so I would say fulfilled, and you're passionate in what you're doing. And time just passes by, you're just not aware of time. It's a joyful experience. very joyful. And so yeah, that's, that's another argument for people doing something in the arts or even a hobby, you know, you can get into flow. If you're very passionate about a hobby, that that you have. So, yes, it's it's very positive experience.

  Alexis Reid  1:03:57

  That's so great. You know, I think our mom gave me Csikszentmihalyi's book Flow like 25 years ago, and it's been something that's guided me personally and professionally and my entire life. So I love that you brought that up. And I think that's a really great place for us to wrap things up in thinking about attention isn't just about this focused, productivity, it really is about appreciating understanding, and just embracing the flow of life, or whatever you might be focused on. Totally. Yeah. Gloria, we're so grateful. Any last thoughts before we wrap up?

  Dr. Gloria Mark  1:04:32

  Well, I I appreciate that. You bring in your own perspectives, your own psychological perspectives into talking about attention and I think that you've really illustrated how broad and comprehensive a topic attention is, right? It's more than just here are the tips you need to focus So, but you're really taking a deep dive. And you know, taking a very broad and holistic perspective and seeing how it connects to emotions and how it connects with other people and how it connects with the activities we're doing and how it connects with our executive function. There's so many different aspects involved in attention and attention is part of life. Right.

  Gerald Reid  1:05:29

  We're so grateful for Your Gloria, This has been great. What a great episode. Thank you. Thank you. So

  Dr. Gloria Mark  1:05:35

  thank you for Yeah, thanks. Thanks for inviting me.

  Gerald Reid  

  Thanks for tuning in to the Reid Connect-ED podcast. Please remember that this is a podcast intended to educate and share ideas, but it is not a substitute for professional care that may be beneficial to you at different points of your life. If you are needed support, please contact your primary care physician, local hospital, educational institution, or support staff at your place of employment to seek out referrals for what may be most helpful for you. ideas shared here have been shaped by many years of training, incredible mentors research theory, evidence based practices and our work with individuals over the years, but it's not intended to represent the opinions of those we work with or who we are affiliated with. The reconnected podcast is hosted by siblings Alexis Reid and Dr. Gerald Reid. Original music is written and recorded by Gerald Reid (www.Jerapy.com) recording was done by Cyber Sound Studios. If you want to follow along on this journey with us the Reid Connect-ED podcast. we'll be releasing new episodes every two weeks each season so please subscribe for updates and notifications. Feel free to also follow us on Instagram @ReidConnectEdPodcast that's @ReidconnectEdPodcast and Twitter @ReidconnectEd. We are grateful for you joining us and we look forward to future episodes. In the meanwhile be curious, be open, and be well.